Thank you for writing this! I know I grew up learning consideration for others in my North American household. I think part of it was my parents grandparents cultures being passed down, and part of it was the communal, cult-like church I grew up in. However, as I grew older, I realized that consideration was gendered. Women HAD to be considerate; it was optional (and praised) for men.
Then I joined the broader culture and realized that what I labeled consideration, other people labeled co-dependence. Ugh. Thankfully I have found an incredible group of female friends who are considerate and caring. They would never think of showing up empty handed to someone’s house, and its ridiculous the amount of food I’m left with every time I host them. If someone is going through a hard time, we notice and arrange care packages and food. If someone has something to celebrate, we are celebrating! All of us were raised in the USA, but we’re all highly sensitive and neurodivergent women, so possible that’s why it works. We also live in a small town, and friendship is more important than career striving. Being around people who are tracking you and making sure you are ok is clearly how we are meant to live. It’s part of belonging.
It reminds me of that parable about people in heaven and hell both having 3 foot long chopsticks, but in heaven they still eat because they feed each other.
This is such an interesting addition Monica, because I think it gives some perspective on why people often struggle to leave cults! They have aspects of the kind of collectivist thinking that I describe here that fulfill something in people's hearts. Unfortunately, like you said, those positives come along with layers and layers of manipulation and toxicity.
Additionally, the patriarchal double standards are absolutely present in Romania, and in similar cultures! This isn't a consideration I thought to add, yet it's an extremely important one that you've thankfully contributed here in the comments. It absolutely is a problem in traditional collectivist societies, and it would be interesting to analyze WHY it happens, as a separate theme.
I love hearing about how things were different in the culture you grew up with vs. how they are in North America. And I do agree that when people don't need to rely on each other much for material things, (food, shelter, etc.,) it allows the privilege of having a culture where we live less communally.
Hmm, I want to share a little story I'm reminded of. Maybe it's not even a story, just a bit from a dhamma talk I remember from a long time ago, from Ajahn Brahm. Totally paraphrasing. He said there were these 3 questions to live by: what is the most important time? Who is the most important person? And what is the most important thing to do?
The first one is the easiest to guess, especially in the context of spirituality. The most important time is now. 😊 The other two are what really stuck with me. The most important person.. is the one you're with. If you're by yourself, it's you. If you're with someone else, it's both of you. If you're in a group, it's all of you. I love that. And the most important thing to do? Is to care. 🥰
I say this because it feels like a beautiful middle ground between thinking only of yourself and thinking only of others. The most important person is "all of us." When I'm describing the highest form of love I offer someone, what I tell them is, "I will love you as I love myself. I will place your needs on the same level as my needs. No more, no less." I learned a few years ago that this kind of love needs to be mutual in order to not be torturously destructive to the one offering it, and I think finding that reciprocity can be difficult. But when you can cultivate it, it's truly wonderful.
I find your analysis of North American culture fascinating. Do you, by chance, hang out with mostly white people? I think you'll find that in most communities of color, there is still the American, "Ask and we will answer," but the whole back half of your article about emotional capacity doesn't really apply. In the South, social interactions are not extractive; we speak about everything from football to car accidents with the underlying goal of getting closer to the other person and seeing if there is anything we can do to make their lives easier or just happier. Showing up empty-handed is inconceivable, yet if someone needs to borrow sugar or a lawnmower or needs a babysitter, all they have to do is knock. If you want to break out of extractive social circles, I'd really recommend joining communities of color or learning about Southern social customs; I think you'd enjoy them.
You're completely right! Canada is SO culturally expansive, and my experience with people of color raised in culturay dense communities has been that I've felt a lot more at home! I did find that people of color raised in isolation from their communities did pick up the more individualistic way of North American socializing, because you kind of have to. It just depends on whether there's anyone around you to respons to collectivist values or not, that tends to determine which of the two someone picks up. A lot of these articles that I do are focused on more of the primary culture of the places I've lived, but that has the disadvantage of lacking nuance and depth when it comes to the sub-communities and sub-cultures of these places, which absolutely do prominently exist!
I am a queer black woman and a socialist, I am an undesirable in the South. I still believe that Southern social customs facilitate community building in a way that North American culture at large does not. I receive more kindness and community from old Southerners than I do from the Northern transplants who look down on us.
My local suicide hotline is famously impossible to get through to. Many people in deep crisis, who struggle to admit that they need help, are met with an automated rejection message. Most never try again.
Recently it became public that the reason for this is that a small group of people call CONSTANTLY. They occupy pretty much all of the volunteers’ time and energy, often “just to chat”. The same few people, taking everything from the well, without caring about leaving anything for others. It was all I could think of reading your post.
This entire thing has blown my mind. I married the son of Romanian immigrants, and to this day, I am deeply confused and occasionally offended by their different family culture. Nobody has ever explained the differences, though they occasionally acknowledge them.
I knew about the fact that it was a faux pas to open gifts in front of other people, and there's always a custom of bringing things to share... but I've also had a hard time reconciling how being considerate of other people ultimately boiled down to lying to them. There is a lack of vulnerability, and knowing that was intended to preserve dignity makes sense now.
But being dishonest isn't very dignified as a long-term practice. I have my own theories about why this is so prevalent in certain cultures, but your insight and experience is particularly helpful.
One time, I shared unseasoned quinoa with the family (we were running late) and explicitly said that it was disgusting, so be sure to add salt. A little while later, my mother-in-law reached for the salt shaker, saying, "It's not the food; I think my body just needs it!" It was really funny to me at the time; now, after 12 years of this, I'm a lot more frustrated. It seems cowardly and manipulative, almost like she doesn't actually expect me to believe what she's saying.
I'm also trying to reconcile what I think you were saying about being considerate of your community. My experience with Romanian culture is incredibly limited, having only been through my in-laws, and I've seen a lot of "give-and-take" mindsets that might be helpful for the community, but are disrespectful or hurtful to the individual. The children seem to get the brunt of it, in fact.
This is something I cannot understand, and wasn't able to reconcile with what you shared, so any clarification you would be willing to offer would be greatly appreciated. I've learned more about this cultural mindset in your single article than I have in a dozen years of being married.
I've been trying to reply to this comment for the past hour but my reply keeps getting attached to the wrong comments 😭 I'm giving up but please know I'm not ignoring your comment and I had meant to give a response!
Let me try one more time, since my last comment went through!
Sadly my friend, some people are just rude! There are Romanian people in Canada that I don't speak to, and Romanian people that I do speak to, and the difference is just what their personalities might be. The passive aggressive jabs absolutely are part of the culture unfortunately. Good Romanian people will resolve things face to face, shittier people will weaponize the culture and constantly expect to have their minds read.
One thing worth noting that I was personally taught, was that you never just walk up to someone's face to say "I have an issue with you because of XYZ." It's weird, but there's this idea that you're forcing or imposing a problem to be resolved for you onto someone else if you just go up to someone and say they've upset you, because there's this idea of "why should I assume that it's something they'll want to deal with or care about?" This is the extremely negative side of the system, because...why SHOULDN'T I tell someone that they've upset me? But it's viewed as oddly self centered to just walk up to people and initiate a disagreement or confrontation. There's this idea that you're interrupting their day to force them to pay attention to you. Part of it is that, within the culture, your loved ones will pay attention to you by virtue of simply just caring about you. So if they don't do it of their own accord, it feels like begging to confront them and ask them for that consideration. How people work around that varies, but most often it lands in passive aggressive territory. This is one of the things I've LOVED about North American culture, which I've benefited from a LOT. But again, better Romanian people WILL just tell you that you've upset them.
If you genuinely are wanting to get your in laws to cooperate or play nicer, it's good to keep in mind that showing care in Romanian cultures means taking care of discomforts for someone before they happen. In the quinoa example, you knew the quinoa lacked salt but brought it anyway, they might have viewed it as "she doesn't respect us enough to prevent that problem for us." Her not wanting to say out loud that she was using salt because it tasted bad was, believe it or not, an act of care. She wanted to prevent you from having to repeat your apology or feel excessively bad, and also wanted to prevent the humiliation of pointing to it. I'd say that you bringing the quinoa unsalted and just saying "it's disgusting, please add salt!" is a good example of the fridge opening I talk about in this article. It was you making a display of comfort, "I'm comfortable enough around you to bring this quinoa and just tell you to add salt. We're family, this is what family does!" They very likely viewed it the way I viewed someone opening my fridge, like "I don't care enough to want to impress you with the food that I bring or to keep you from the effort of adding salt." It's possible that, over time, these differences compounded, and now they've become convinced that you never cared about them from day one, and they're also being exceptionally rude to you in return.
That being said, I believe it was their burden to learn what YOUR culture looks like, and what care looks like to you. Because now they've taken someone with the best, most well meaning intentions, and have treated her like shit. Where's the consideration in that? Where's the culture of preventing discomfort in this case?
These are phenomenal examples of how Romanian culture can be weaponized and also taken too far. Sometimes it just becomes too complicated, and that's the aspect of it where it absolutely can use an injection of North American culture. Also great examples of how a culture of consideration can turn right around and fail at the very thing it sets out to do.
Dear goodness. Where have you been for the last twelve years? This is incredible, haha!
My husband always got really upset or offended if I made something with little to no effort. In fact, he has repeatedly said he would rather I cook nothing than cook something badly. He never put it in those words, but I now see that there is implied disrespect or neglect if I choose not to make that effort on his behalf. Gosh, I don't even know if he consciously recognizes that. It's just always been part of his life, whereas I grew up in the Midwest eating a bunch of ground beef, pasta salads, and corn on the cob. 🤣
And I have to give credit where it's due-- I never had cabbage or liver or eggplant or any number of other delightful ingredients which are now staples in my kitchen until I married him. I've learned how to make sarmale, chorba, zacuska, and plenty of other diverse and amazing things. I have a recipe for covrigi that I'm hoping to try someday to surprise him.
My situation with my in-laws became more complicated a few years ago, unfortunately, because of some inappropriate behavior from my father-in-law shortly before my mother-in-law divorced him. I've been a lot more sensitive to these differences ever since then, because it's hard for me to separate those particular situations from the overall family dynamics and cultural influences. I don't expect that I'll single-handedly change any aspect of those things, so at this point, I'm doing my best to mind my own business.
I appreciate the life experience that you have undergone to contribute to your current mindset; thank you again for being willing to share!
Thanks for your fine-grained, balanced take on why Americans suffer from a lack of stronger community bonds.
My Jewish, half-British girlfriend had to educate my white-american-upper-middle-class-therapy-speak ass why it was profoundly rude for my mom to scoff at her for bringing a box of cookies and complaining, "more cookies is the last thing we need". My mom's family is not desperate for anything (other than true emotional connection).
My girflriend later asked why I don't date someone who's family has a fuller pantry (so-to-speak). I said her family has what my family lacks: emotional sensitivity to others' needs. Now, I never arrive at her family's home empty handed anymore, and I'm ashamed I ever did!
I, too, am a Person who has grown up in one culture and has now lived for a long time in another. I don’t think I can tell you well enough how incredible it is to have just had the privilege to read your work about what I have witnessed and felt for over a decade, but never been able to describe well in words. I think you are going to do some truly great things.
Life really is just one big balancing act, right? We can't totally rely on others but we can't be completely independent. Finding the good middle ground and/or adapting depending on different people and different circumstances is incredibly hard to judge. Right now, I feel like we are living in such a lonely timeline. Which is also why I look forward to a Discord, even thought i would be scared for it to end up like so many of the Discord groups I've come to love which just turn into me talking to myself and hoping someone will join in 🥲
Without wishing this on you I think you’ll find that in a emergency or act of god or other sudden difficulty the community rallies. That’s what happened during the Cedar Fire in San Diego county in 2003. Our little town rallied and took in dozens of evacuated families. We got to the community center, made a huge urn of coffee, and figured it out. No practice. Then we, too, were evacuated and spent two nights on someone’s trailer’s floor further east. It’s an experience I’ve never forgotten.
Yeah it seems like in North America it's not that we don't know how to be giving, but it's just that it needs to be very obvious that there's a need. So when something like a disaster strikes, we know how to rally around that, and for the victims of the disaster they don't even really need to ask. Everyone knows they are in a tough place now and need help. But this is an extreme that's not present in our everyday life.
The same social dynamics apply in Bulgaria, even now when, in the cities at least, there isn’t scarcity (compared to 90s/early 2000s period). I hadn’t thought about them until you broke down the rules in this article, I’ve just internalized them. Western sensibilities are so stark in comparison, not just in community settings, but also in one-on-one relationships. You are expected to explicitly ask for what you want or need. Over time, it leaves you feeling lonely because no one is paying enough attention to notice.
As a first generation Canadian daughter of Romanian immigrant parents, you’re helping me revisit and learn so much from Romanian culture. I can’t tell you how much it means to me to have you articulate these feelings and experiences in such a crystal clear way. Thank you for all the work you do!!🩵 I feel so grateful that as a Romanian sapphic, I get to enjoy your content 🥰 it’s been an incredible journey uncovering parts of my sexual and gender and Romanian identities through the very thought provoking and incredible essays you write. Please never stop writing!!🥲 Hope you are doing well Spencer, sending you lots of good energy from Vancouver, Canada! 🫶🫶
This was a really fascinating read and I admire your power of observation and analysis. I want to ask you this: how are people’s dignities preserved in these social scripts if everyone knows what is being implicitly communicated? I’ve conducted anthropological research and despite all my reading about similar social mechanisms, I’ve always been confused by this, having grown up in the US. At surface level I can accept the premise but whenever I think deeply about it, I just can’t understand how a person who repeatedly rejects being given food and finally given in is spared any humiliation, when everyone around knows what is being communicated. Is it actually that people only “know” what is happening at a subconscious level? Or if you were to ask adults in Romania, would they be able to explain why they do this song and dance?
Another question, if you have time: what sort of rules do you have in place for these communities you’ve built? I’ve recently moved to The Netherlands and I’m really determined to make friends and build communities but my experiences with community-building in London have left me largely hopeless, so maybe your tips will make social groups here stick. Thanks so much if you find time to answer me.
How is it any different from a friend asking if they look terrible in a dress, and rather than say yes, you instead say that another dress is more flattering rather than saying it outright. I think that there is value in another person not having to make themselves immediately vulnerable to the other and for each to signal to the other that they care about each other's circumstances. In the direct American approach, the person who is "giving" is allowed a role of superiority rather than an exchange of reciprocity, which does maintain dignity.
That’s a really good point. I suppose it’s just about maintaining plausible deniability. Even if both parties technically could be forced to explain their ‘song and dance’, in the moment we tend to reject these realities and embrace the comforting illusion so we can maintain our dignity.
I must admit, having been born and raised and still living in Southern California white suburbs, the story with the ice cream upsets me a bit.
My parents always fed the kids that came over to play with us. There wasn’t even a question of it. We were not well off by any means, but my parents lived under the belief that if a child was in their care, they were to be fed and cared for as one of their own for the duration of the stay.
When my siblings and I went to visit the homes of other kids, we quickly learned that this was not the belief of other families. Even the ones with much nicer homes and fuller pantries than our own. We were expected to grab a snack for ourselves if we wanted one (to our great discomfort, as we were told not to ever just go through other people’s shelves). One family would even make a snack for their own kids, then tell us to go play in the living room or go home while they ate.
I’ve lived in this “fend for yourself” North American culture my whole life, it’s all I know really, but I still see so much flawed in it and wish it wasn’t so accepted as the norm.
I really appreciated this detailed account of your experience and insight into social dynamics. I think it interesting that you describe experiencing that in Canada, whereas us Americans usually see Canadians as excessively polite people who avoid being seen as “too needy” and don’t speak up for themselves. People here joke that Canadians apologize for using up air. Maybe the U.S. is just worse?
I’m an AuDHD Texan and struggle so hard with people not noticing and including me, when I was taught by my parents to always notice the people on the fringes and include them. In the South, I experience this strange mix of “speak up” and “take what you need” but also some distant echos of old social structures where people pretend to be interested, to like you, to be fine, etc when they’re not, and you have to read between the lines to know what you should do. The rules end up being far more unwritten and individual than European etiquette is. Something that is incredibly stressful for an autistic person like me.
Also, as a Pastor’s Kid, I felt like I could never ask for help or attention, because I felt I was taking from people in greater need. I developed a strong sense of guilt for asking for what I need.
I love everything about this piece! The observations, the analysis, the narration, the contemplation, and then the conversations it sparks up.
This is the kind of writings I would want to produce about my own observations and thoughts. Love your work!
Also there’s some things I’m curious about if you wouldn’t mind sharing. How would the Romanian etiquette plays out in more intimate settings? Does the hesitance in asking for help also get carried within a relationship with a spouse/partner? Or does the cultural teachings also trained the people to have strong distinctions between the general societal relations and more intimate ones? Thank you!
Wow. This was one of the few articles that I’ve ever saved on Substack. Parts of your experience hit so hard, as someone in America with a different cultural background. Oftentimes we think it’s us but it’s just cultural norms. I admire you following this train of thought and writing about it with such depth and vulnerability and clarity. Thank you for this piece!
Thank you for writing this! I know I grew up learning consideration for others in my North American household. I think part of it was my parents grandparents cultures being passed down, and part of it was the communal, cult-like church I grew up in. However, as I grew older, I realized that consideration was gendered. Women HAD to be considerate; it was optional (and praised) for men.
Then I joined the broader culture and realized that what I labeled consideration, other people labeled co-dependence. Ugh. Thankfully I have found an incredible group of female friends who are considerate and caring. They would never think of showing up empty handed to someone’s house, and its ridiculous the amount of food I’m left with every time I host them. If someone is going through a hard time, we notice and arrange care packages and food. If someone has something to celebrate, we are celebrating! All of us were raised in the USA, but we’re all highly sensitive and neurodivergent women, so possible that’s why it works. We also live in a small town, and friendship is more important than career striving. Being around people who are tracking you and making sure you are ok is clearly how we are meant to live. It’s part of belonging.
It reminds me of that parable about people in heaven and hell both having 3 foot long chopsticks, but in heaven they still eat because they feed each other.
This is such an interesting addition Monica, because I think it gives some perspective on why people often struggle to leave cults! They have aspects of the kind of collectivist thinking that I describe here that fulfill something in people's hearts. Unfortunately, like you said, those positives come along with layers and layers of manipulation and toxicity.
Additionally, the patriarchal double standards are absolutely present in Romania, and in similar cultures! This isn't a consideration I thought to add, yet it's an extremely important one that you've thankfully contributed here in the comments. It absolutely is a problem in traditional collectivist societies, and it would be interesting to analyze WHY it happens, as a separate theme.
Thank you so much for your additions!
☝🏻this
I love hearing about how things were different in the culture you grew up with vs. how they are in North America. And I do agree that when people don't need to rely on each other much for material things, (food, shelter, etc.,) it allows the privilege of having a culture where we live less communally.
Hmm, I want to share a little story I'm reminded of. Maybe it's not even a story, just a bit from a dhamma talk I remember from a long time ago, from Ajahn Brahm. Totally paraphrasing. He said there were these 3 questions to live by: what is the most important time? Who is the most important person? And what is the most important thing to do?
The first one is the easiest to guess, especially in the context of spirituality. The most important time is now. 😊 The other two are what really stuck with me. The most important person.. is the one you're with. If you're by yourself, it's you. If you're with someone else, it's both of you. If you're in a group, it's all of you. I love that. And the most important thing to do? Is to care. 🥰
I say this because it feels like a beautiful middle ground between thinking only of yourself and thinking only of others. The most important person is "all of us." When I'm describing the highest form of love I offer someone, what I tell them is, "I will love you as I love myself. I will place your needs on the same level as my needs. No more, no less." I learned a few years ago that this kind of love needs to be mutual in order to not be torturously destructive to the one offering it, and I think finding that reciprocity can be difficult. But when you can cultivate it, it's truly wonderful.
I find your analysis of North American culture fascinating. Do you, by chance, hang out with mostly white people? I think you'll find that in most communities of color, there is still the American, "Ask and we will answer," but the whole back half of your article about emotional capacity doesn't really apply. In the South, social interactions are not extractive; we speak about everything from football to car accidents with the underlying goal of getting closer to the other person and seeing if there is anything we can do to make their lives easier or just happier. Showing up empty-handed is inconceivable, yet if someone needs to borrow sugar or a lawnmower or needs a babysitter, all they have to do is knock. If you want to break out of extractive social circles, I'd really recommend joining communities of color or learning about Southern social customs; I think you'd enjoy them.
You're completely right! Canada is SO culturally expansive, and my experience with people of color raised in culturay dense communities has been that I've felt a lot more at home! I did find that people of color raised in isolation from their communities did pick up the more individualistic way of North American socializing, because you kind of have to. It just depends on whether there's anyone around you to respons to collectivist values or not, that tends to determine which of the two someone picks up. A lot of these articles that I do are focused on more of the primary culture of the places I've lived, but that has the disadvantage of lacking nuance and depth when it comes to the sub-communities and sub-cultures of these places, which absolutely do prominently exist!
Yeah but if you’re an undesirable then the way the south does things is just straight up evil
I am a queer black woman and a socialist, I am an undesirable in the South. I still believe that Southern social customs facilitate community building in a way that North American culture at large does not. I receive more kindness and community from old Southerners than I do from the Northern transplants who look down on us.
Completely agree! Southern customs sound more like the Romanian customs. Everyone takes care of their neighbors- especially in rural areas.
My local suicide hotline is famously impossible to get through to. Many people in deep crisis, who struggle to admit that they need help, are met with an automated rejection message. Most never try again.
Recently it became public that the reason for this is that a small group of people call CONSTANTLY. They occupy pretty much all of the volunteers’ time and energy, often “just to chat”. The same few people, taking everything from the well, without caring about leaving anything for others. It was all I could think of reading your post.
This entire thing has blown my mind. I married the son of Romanian immigrants, and to this day, I am deeply confused and occasionally offended by their different family culture. Nobody has ever explained the differences, though they occasionally acknowledge them.
I knew about the fact that it was a faux pas to open gifts in front of other people, and there's always a custom of bringing things to share... but I've also had a hard time reconciling how being considerate of other people ultimately boiled down to lying to them. There is a lack of vulnerability, and knowing that was intended to preserve dignity makes sense now.
But being dishonest isn't very dignified as a long-term practice. I have my own theories about why this is so prevalent in certain cultures, but your insight and experience is particularly helpful.
One time, I shared unseasoned quinoa with the family (we were running late) and explicitly said that it was disgusting, so be sure to add salt. A little while later, my mother-in-law reached for the salt shaker, saying, "It's not the food; I think my body just needs it!" It was really funny to me at the time; now, after 12 years of this, I'm a lot more frustrated. It seems cowardly and manipulative, almost like she doesn't actually expect me to believe what she's saying.
I'm also trying to reconcile what I think you were saying about being considerate of your community. My experience with Romanian culture is incredibly limited, having only been through my in-laws, and I've seen a lot of "give-and-take" mindsets that might be helpful for the community, but are disrespectful or hurtful to the individual. The children seem to get the brunt of it, in fact.
This is something I cannot understand, and wasn't able to reconcile with what you shared, so any clarification you would be willing to offer would be greatly appreciated. I've learned more about this cultural mindset in your single article than I have in a dozen years of being married.
I've been trying to reply to this comment for the past hour but my reply keeps getting attached to the wrong comments 😭 I'm giving up but please know I'm not ignoring your comment and I had meant to give a response!
Daw, no worries! Comment sections can be iffy sometimes. 😂
Thanks for the time, and for sharing your thoughts!
Let me try one more time, since my last comment went through!
Sadly my friend, some people are just rude! There are Romanian people in Canada that I don't speak to, and Romanian people that I do speak to, and the difference is just what their personalities might be. The passive aggressive jabs absolutely are part of the culture unfortunately. Good Romanian people will resolve things face to face, shittier people will weaponize the culture and constantly expect to have their minds read.
One thing worth noting that I was personally taught, was that you never just walk up to someone's face to say "I have an issue with you because of XYZ." It's weird, but there's this idea that you're forcing or imposing a problem to be resolved for you onto someone else if you just go up to someone and say they've upset you, because there's this idea of "why should I assume that it's something they'll want to deal with or care about?" This is the extremely negative side of the system, because...why SHOULDN'T I tell someone that they've upset me? But it's viewed as oddly self centered to just walk up to people and initiate a disagreement or confrontation. There's this idea that you're interrupting their day to force them to pay attention to you. Part of it is that, within the culture, your loved ones will pay attention to you by virtue of simply just caring about you. So if they don't do it of their own accord, it feels like begging to confront them and ask them for that consideration. How people work around that varies, but most often it lands in passive aggressive territory. This is one of the things I've LOVED about North American culture, which I've benefited from a LOT. But again, better Romanian people WILL just tell you that you've upset them.
If you genuinely are wanting to get your in laws to cooperate or play nicer, it's good to keep in mind that showing care in Romanian cultures means taking care of discomforts for someone before they happen. In the quinoa example, you knew the quinoa lacked salt but brought it anyway, they might have viewed it as "she doesn't respect us enough to prevent that problem for us." Her not wanting to say out loud that she was using salt because it tasted bad was, believe it or not, an act of care. She wanted to prevent you from having to repeat your apology or feel excessively bad, and also wanted to prevent the humiliation of pointing to it. I'd say that you bringing the quinoa unsalted and just saying "it's disgusting, please add salt!" is a good example of the fridge opening I talk about in this article. It was you making a display of comfort, "I'm comfortable enough around you to bring this quinoa and just tell you to add salt. We're family, this is what family does!" They very likely viewed it the way I viewed someone opening my fridge, like "I don't care enough to want to impress you with the food that I bring or to keep you from the effort of adding salt." It's possible that, over time, these differences compounded, and now they've become convinced that you never cared about them from day one, and they're also being exceptionally rude to you in return.
That being said, I believe it was their burden to learn what YOUR culture looks like, and what care looks like to you. Because now they've taken someone with the best, most well meaning intentions, and have treated her like shit. Where's the consideration in that? Where's the culture of preventing discomfort in this case?
These are phenomenal examples of how Romanian culture can be weaponized and also taken too far. Sometimes it just becomes too complicated, and that's the aspect of it where it absolutely can use an injection of North American culture. Also great examples of how a culture of consideration can turn right around and fail at the very thing it sets out to do.
Dear goodness. Where have you been for the last twelve years? This is incredible, haha!
My husband always got really upset or offended if I made something with little to no effort. In fact, he has repeatedly said he would rather I cook nothing than cook something badly. He never put it in those words, but I now see that there is implied disrespect or neglect if I choose not to make that effort on his behalf. Gosh, I don't even know if he consciously recognizes that. It's just always been part of his life, whereas I grew up in the Midwest eating a bunch of ground beef, pasta salads, and corn on the cob. 🤣
And I have to give credit where it's due-- I never had cabbage or liver or eggplant or any number of other delightful ingredients which are now staples in my kitchen until I married him. I've learned how to make sarmale, chorba, zacuska, and plenty of other diverse and amazing things. I have a recipe for covrigi that I'm hoping to try someday to surprise him.
My situation with my in-laws became more complicated a few years ago, unfortunately, because of some inappropriate behavior from my father-in-law shortly before my mother-in-law divorced him. I've been a lot more sensitive to these differences ever since then, because it's hard for me to separate those particular situations from the overall family dynamics and cultural influences. I don't expect that I'll single-handedly change any aspect of those things, so at this point, I'm doing my best to mind my own business.
I appreciate the life experience that you have undergone to contribute to your current mindset; thank you again for being willing to share!
Thanks for your fine-grained, balanced take on why Americans suffer from a lack of stronger community bonds.
My Jewish, half-British girlfriend had to educate my white-american-upper-middle-class-therapy-speak ass why it was profoundly rude for my mom to scoff at her for bringing a box of cookies and complaining, "more cookies is the last thing we need". My mom's family is not desperate for anything (other than true emotional connection).
My girflriend later asked why I don't date someone who's family has a fuller pantry (so-to-speak). I said her family has what my family lacks: emotional sensitivity to others' needs. Now, I never arrive at her family's home empty handed anymore, and I'm ashamed I ever did!
I don't think you need to feel ashamed of not knowing what they expected.
I, too, am a Person who has grown up in one culture and has now lived for a long time in another. I don’t think I can tell you well enough how incredible it is to have just had the privilege to read your work about what I have witnessed and felt for over a decade, but never been able to describe well in words. I think you are going to do some truly great things.
Life really is just one big balancing act, right? We can't totally rely on others but we can't be completely independent. Finding the good middle ground and/or adapting depending on different people and different circumstances is incredibly hard to judge. Right now, I feel like we are living in such a lonely timeline. Which is also why I look forward to a Discord, even thought i would be scared for it to end up like so many of the Discord groups I've come to love which just turn into me talking to myself and hoping someone will join in 🥲
Without wishing this on you I think you’ll find that in a emergency or act of god or other sudden difficulty the community rallies. That’s what happened during the Cedar Fire in San Diego county in 2003. Our little town rallied and took in dozens of evacuated families. We got to the community center, made a huge urn of coffee, and figured it out. No practice. Then we, too, were evacuated and spent two nights on someone’s trailer’s floor further east. It’s an experience I’ve never forgotten.
Yeah it seems like in North America it's not that we don't know how to be giving, but it's just that it needs to be very obvious that there's a need. So when something like a disaster strikes, we know how to rally around that, and for the victims of the disaster they don't even really need to ask. Everyone knows they are in a tough place now and need help. But this is an extreme that's not present in our everyday life.
Exactly.
The same social dynamics apply in Bulgaria, even now when, in the cities at least, there isn’t scarcity (compared to 90s/early 2000s period). I hadn’t thought about them until you broke down the rules in this article, I’ve just internalized them. Western sensibilities are so stark in comparison, not just in community settings, but also in one-on-one relationships. You are expected to explicitly ask for what you want or need. Over time, it leaves you feeling lonely because no one is paying enough attention to notice.
As a first generation Canadian daughter of Romanian immigrant parents, you’re helping me revisit and learn so much from Romanian culture. I can’t tell you how much it means to me to have you articulate these feelings and experiences in such a crystal clear way. Thank you for all the work you do!!🩵 I feel so grateful that as a Romanian sapphic, I get to enjoy your content 🥰 it’s been an incredible journey uncovering parts of my sexual and gender and Romanian identities through the very thought provoking and incredible essays you write. Please never stop writing!!🥲 Hope you are doing well Spencer, sending you lots of good energy from Vancouver, Canada! 🫶🫶
This was a really fascinating read and I admire your power of observation and analysis. I want to ask you this: how are people’s dignities preserved in these social scripts if everyone knows what is being implicitly communicated? I’ve conducted anthropological research and despite all my reading about similar social mechanisms, I’ve always been confused by this, having grown up in the US. At surface level I can accept the premise but whenever I think deeply about it, I just can’t understand how a person who repeatedly rejects being given food and finally given in is spared any humiliation, when everyone around knows what is being communicated. Is it actually that people only “know” what is happening at a subconscious level? Or if you were to ask adults in Romania, would they be able to explain why they do this song and dance?
Another question, if you have time: what sort of rules do you have in place for these communities you’ve built? I’ve recently moved to The Netherlands and I’m really determined to make friends and build communities but my experiences with community-building in London have left me largely hopeless, so maybe your tips will make social groups here stick. Thanks so much if you find time to answer me.
How is it any different from a friend asking if they look terrible in a dress, and rather than say yes, you instead say that another dress is more flattering rather than saying it outright. I think that there is value in another person not having to make themselves immediately vulnerable to the other and for each to signal to the other that they care about each other's circumstances. In the direct American approach, the person who is "giving" is allowed a role of superiority rather than an exchange of reciprocity, which does maintain dignity.
That’s a really good point. I suppose it’s just about maintaining plausible deniability. Even if both parties technically could be forced to explain their ‘song and dance’, in the moment we tend to reject these realities and embrace the comforting illusion so we can maintain our dignity.
It is very clearly designed to humiliate and exacerbate class differences. It's to get you to "admit" inferiority, plain and simple.
Following
I must admit, having been born and raised and still living in Southern California white suburbs, the story with the ice cream upsets me a bit.
My parents always fed the kids that came over to play with us. There wasn’t even a question of it. We were not well off by any means, but my parents lived under the belief that if a child was in their care, they were to be fed and cared for as one of their own for the duration of the stay.
When my siblings and I went to visit the homes of other kids, we quickly learned that this was not the belief of other families. Even the ones with much nicer homes and fuller pantries than our own. We were expected to grab a snack for ourselves if we wanted one (to our great discomfort, as we were told not to ever just go through other people’s shelves). One family would even make a snack for their own kids, then tell us to go play in the living room or go home while they ate.
I’ve lived in this “fend for yourself” North American culture my whole life, it’s all I know really, but I still see so much flawed in it and wish it wasn’t so accepted as the norm.
It is not normal!
I really appreciated this detailed account of your experience and insight into social dynamics. I think it interesting that you describe experiencing that in Canada, whereas us Americans usually see Canadians as excessively polite people who avoid being seen as “too needy” and don’t speak up for themselves. People here joke that Canadians apologize for using up air. Maybe the U.S. is just worse?
I’m an AuDHD Texan and struggle so hard with people not noticing and including me, when I was taught by my parents to always notice the people on the fringes and include them. In the South, I experience this strange mix of “speak up” and “take what you need” but also some distant echos of old social structures where people pretend to be interested, to like you, to be fine, etc when they’re not, and you have to read between the lines to know what you should do. The rules end up being far more unwritten and individual than European etiquette is. Something that is incredibly stressful for an autistic person like me.
Also, as a Pastor’s Kid, I felt like I could never ask for help or attention, because I felt I was taking from people in greater need. I developed a strong sense of guilt for asking for what I need.
I love everything about this piece! The observations, the analysis, the narration, the contemplation, and then the conversations it sparks up.
This is the kind of writings I would want to produce about my own observations and thoughts. Love your work!
Also there’s some things I’m curious about if you wouldn’t mind sharing. How would the Romanian etiquette plays out in more intimate settings? Does the hesitance in asking for help also get carried within a relationship with a spouse/partner? Or does the cultural teachings also trained the people to have strong distinctions between the general societal relations and more intimate ones? Thank you!
Wow. This was one of the few articles that I’ve ever saved on Substack. Parts of your experience hit so hard, as someone in America with a different cultural background. Oftentimes we think it’s us but it’s just cultural norms. I admire you following this train of thought and writing about it with such depth and vulnerability and clarity. Thank you for this piece!